A\V Reciever.

Blazin Trav · 08-18-2008, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WmAx

Are you serious? How is going to last less time than a 'new' product? Do you think they purposely hide half-broken parts inside on purpose as part of a conspiracy?

I own a very large number of factory refurbished products, as well as many bought as 'new' items, staring since the mid to late 90's, and nearly all of them look like new inside and out, with NO evidence of ever even being used(inspecting things like dust on interior of vented items, micro scratches on polished acrylic surfaces/displays, rub marks/wear on plastic or rubber feet, ect.). I have not had refurbished equipment fail any more often than new equipment. In fact, refurbished gear has been better IME. I have only had one defect in a refurbished gear(a defect motor on a high end turn table which was promptly fixed under warranty), but I have had several bought as 'new' gear items fail over the years: a Pioneer A/V receiver, a Yamaha DVD/SACD 5 Disc Changer, a Sony DiscMan, a Behringer microphone, a Sony VCR Remote, A Pioneer Magazine Disc Changer(still works, but makes squeaking sound in main platter bearing), a high end Sony MDR-CD3000 headphone(drivers still work, headband broke despite careful treatment), a Wester Digital MyBook drive, an ABIT IS7 motherboard(poor solder joints - ports keep failing as a result - also very low quality fan that failed every few months).

-Chris

I figured I'd get some response taking my OPINION way too seriously so I'll sit here and argue with you since that appears to be your 'modus apparande.'

Just because you, one person, has never had an issue with a refurbished item doesn't mean much to me, since you are ONE person with ONE experience. Just as a website has more than one review to allow for a non-biased and equal understanding of a product before I buy it. When I buy new items for the most part I always buy with an extended warranty, but not always since motherboards I can just send back in and get back fairly quickly.

Your experience does not create an end all be all for consumers. That said refurbished receivers are fine, but there are definitely other items, such as hard drives (for example, I'm not gonna waste time with plenty of other examples), that I wouldn't buy refurbished.

Half broken parts? Conspiracy? Come on now you are just being ridiculous. Please stick to the thread rather than create a flame war, or take it to private messaging if you really feel it necessary to think I'm insane. Yes NEW is NEW. Refurbished is REFURBISHED. There is a difference.

Now if we are done with our blast to the past preschool yard fight I can safely say that Denon and Onkyos are the best brands. I haven't had a problem with my new Yamaha so why is that even an argument?

Depends where you are getting the refurb and the warranty that comes with it too... you can't honestly believe that all refurbs are safe and that your experience is congruent with literally everyone else's on the planet, do you? That said, the refurb Onkyo looks to be a better unit but I have never heard of 'accessories4less' so I would advise looking at resellerratings or reviews of the site to see how legit it is...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auzner

These are useless posts. The posts are useless because they have no usefulness, so that makes them useless. Pretty useless. Definitely, yeah definitely, definitely...

So in those other threads it was about Behringer, but I guess we're all about used Onkyos now. I think Onkyo is great, the one I use is solid and does everything but DVI/HDMI. They also have nice remote controllers. Dell sent me a $500 refurb monitor, I could have sworn it was new just without cables, oh well I have like 10 of every cable there is. There are standards to refurbs, getting a ****ty refurb means some idiot on ebay doesn't know how to label an item used and was lying. Refurbished is like saying there's no guarantee you'll get the pretty box and 100% of the accessories, but you'll get a working unit with a full warranty. Of course if you buy it at Fry's that's a huge risk, Fry's is another one to ruin the image of refurbs.

Wow I'm not the only one... I don't have my head in the clouds? Interesting.

Quote:

and with Sony, "ES is generally best", although i've seen a few units that are non-ES that perform well (think about ES like Pioneer's Elite series, the top of the line non-Elite units aren't bad, but the Elite units generally clean up when it comes to quality/features (they also cost, a lot more))

so basically, i'd be partial to yamaha if I were buying new, but new will get you nothing special (even from Yamaha, because in the $200 range, its the HTR series, which is kind of dinky vs the RX- series (or the Hi-Fi stuff)) refurb and used you can find quite a few good deals from Onkyo, Harman/Kardon (they sell refurb direct on their website (just browse around for it at harmankardon.com, its the Harman/JBL/Infinity Sys/etc vendor, and they do a lot of refurb)) theres also Sony that will be pretty common used, just do your homework before buying Sony products (same is true for Technics, both Sony and Technics have made some amazing products over time, but they've also made some fairly crappy products over time)

You are being a bit off topic here since he said what his price range is and he already has a higher quality receiver upstairs. Sometimes people need only what they need and not anything more than that. That said, I asked Skeeder, who was the audio guy on the forums when he was still here... this question a while ago. He said Yahama hands down, at least for the $150-200 pricerange. Due to several audiophiles telling me the same thing I was simply passing that knowledge onto you... that said a refurbished Onkyo from a good source is a fine choice as well.

Most people don't need 5.1 but I could see having the extra HDMI/DVI inputs as being important if you really hook video into your receiver. I don't so it's not important for me, but this thread isn't about person vs. person it's about helping the OP.

WmAx · 08-18-2008, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blazin Trav

Just because you, one person, has never had an issue with a refurbished item doesn't mean much to me, since you are ONE person with ONE experience. Just as a website has more than one review to allow for a non-biased and equal understanding of a product before I buy it.

Fair enough. But the issue at hand, and the reason I replied, is your implication that refurbished was inherently in some way substantially less reliable. I don't know of any statistically valid source of information demonstrating such a thing as an inherent fact/trend.

Quote:

Half broken parts? Conspiracy? Come on now you are just being ridiculous. Please stick to the thread rather than create a flame war, or take it to private messaging if you really feel it necessary to think I'm insane. Yes NEW is NEW. Refurbished is REFURBISHED. There is a difference.

I am not familar wiith what you consier a 'flame war'. I responded in the nicest way possible, and made no personal attack of any sort. The suppositions I posed, in the form of questions, is a serious inquirey. Because that is what it would essentially require, so far as I can tell, for factory refurbished items to have a statistically significant failure rate inherently. What other reason can there be for refurbished items, inherently, to be of any significantly less reliability as compare to 'new', inherently?

Quote:

Depends where you are getting the refurb and the warranty that comes with it too... you can't honestly believe that all refurbs are safe and that your experience is congruent with literally everyone else's on the planet, do you?

I only recommend factory/manufacturer refurbished items. This is the safest 'bet', though NOTHING is 100 percent certain. The same goes for new items: some of which have specific errors/flaws in design that make them more prone to failure.

Quote:

That said, the refurb Onkyo looks to be a better unit but I have never heard of 'accessories4less' so I would advise looking at resellerratings or reviews of the site to see how legit it is...

Your concerns for a relatively smaller/less known retailer are certainly prudent. I only recommend that site specifically, because I know of them to be an authorized factory reseller/dealer, and I have done considerable business with them before, and they have had prompt/attentive customer service. I researched them for trends of customer problems across Google, as I always do, and such searches turned out with a vast majority of happy customer feedback statements. I never depend on any single reseller rating guide or site/source, but they do have a close to 10 resellerratings.com rating, but this rating is only based on about 20 reviews, which is too small of a number to matter(I believe this could be easily faked by any one store with fake reveiws of they so desired).

-Chris

obobskivich · 08-18-2008, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blazin Trav

You are being a bit off topic here since he said what his price range is and he already has a higher quality receiver upstairs. Sometimes people need only what they need and not anything more than that. That said, I asked Skeeder, who was the audio guy on the forums when he was still here... this question a while ago. He said Yahama hands down, at least for the $150-200 pricerange. Due to several audiophiles telling me the same thing I was simply passing that knowledge onto you... that said a refurbished Onkyo from a good source is a fine choice as well.

Most people don't need 5.1 but I could see having the extra HDMI/DVI inputs as being important if you really hook video into your receiver. I don't so it's not important for me, but this thread isn't about person vs. person it's about helping the OP.

i'm not being off topic, you're not reading what I wrote
I was supporting wmax in saying that ES line products are what you go for, when you find Sony, and I suggested the OP look at thrift stores and used equipment
I got an ES CDP for $5 at a thrift store, sorry, thats out of his budget because its actually quality (and for that price, unbeatable quality (unless you steal things, or know someone who gets things free))

did I mention its a refurb?
yes, its killed my family, burned my house down, and dropped my credit score to 0 just because I got an ES line part and it was also refurb'd

seriously man, grow up
one bad experience with a refurb is just like one bad experience with a new product, QC is not a perfected art, the majority of factory refurbished equipment will be just as good as factory new equipment, except for accessories not always being included, or it looking a little rough around the edges (based on the grade of refurb'd equipment, most resellers only deal in A and B though, so very minimal damage, only education and a few other sectors will primarily deal with grade C resale (because the margins are so low))

so I'd really LOVE TO KNOW how i'm off topic, when I'm just giving some pointers on finding used or refurbished equipment, especially if he wants to take the Sony route, I'm not the one saying "your life will end and the gods will smite you if you buy refurb", and I'm also not the one jumping into the thread and trying to moderate it

yeah, he's got a setup upstairs, yeah its good quality, so you're saying we're only allowed ONE good quality object of a type in our homes? we can't have two good quality receivers? can't have two good quality PCs?

sorry, I thought the goal was to get him the best equipment he could afford, and the only way to do that is refurb'd, used, or otherwise not new

if you want to go yamaha, because you talked to a guy who knows a guy who claims to be an audiophile (and if you knew anything about the world of HT, you'd know that audiophiles usually don't know jack **** about logical purchases, these are the people who spend $13,000 on power cables and $500 on "woodlenses" (both are real, look it up))

well, in the $150-$200, and we have to buy new to satiate you, you'll be looking at the HTR range, which is utter garbage vs used equipment (such as the onkyo, or used from any other brand (including yamaha))

yes, yamaha is a good brand, there are also other good brands on the market, such as Onkyo, Sony ES, Pioneer/Pioneer Elite, Denon, Technics, JVC, Kenwood, and Marantz (and many others), all of which I've seen in thrift stores, pawn shops, refurb'd, etc, and all of which usually re-sell for a lot lower than their purchase price (and usually under $150) and will offer VASTLY superior quality to the HTR line (this isn't to say the HTR is utter garbage, its just utter garbage vs used gear at a similar price point)

personally, I love my yamaha reciever, its used (which means it too has killed my children, dropped my credit score to 0, and all of those other evil things), but I'm not gonna scream and cry that Yamaha is the only answer, because he might not even have one available to him at a good price/location, so why get him locked into a single brand?

department76 · 08-18-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich

yes, yamaha is a good brand, there are also other good brands on the market, such as Onkyo, Sony ES, Pioneer/Pioneer Elite, Denon, Technics, JVC, Kenwood, and Marantz (and many others), all of which I've seen in thrift stores, pawn shops, refurb'd, etc, and all of which usually re-sell for a lot lower than their purchase price (and usually under $150) and will offer VASTLY superior quality to the HTR line (this isn't to say the HTR is utter garbage, its just utter garbage vs used gear at a similar price point)

i totally agree there are plenty of capable brands. when looking at low end isn't quite the same as judging midrange or the high end, it's all a bit different imo. plus, when looking at lower end items and even some midrange stuff, it's harder to scrutinize specs the same way becuase everythings jsut at a lower standard.

lol speaking of kenwood, they make a decent receiver. i really wish they still did because i'd be interested in them, my parents have a (circa 2001 model year) kenwood and it rocks. it handles low impedance like an absolute champ-- outdoor speakers and upstairs speakers in parallel makes a nice 4ohm load, run without problems. that and they keep the thing cramped inside a wooden cabinet with only about an inch of airspace all the way around and the thing has never overheated. pretty impressive.

obobskivich · 08-18-2008, 11:29 PM

yeah, and the OLD school kenwoods, like 1970's oldschool (like before Kensonic broke off to become Accuphase oldschool) are just amazing pieces of equipment, big, heavy, relatively rare, and amazing quality

kenwood is an oddball company, most of their products are great, some of them are meh, and they don't really make a lot of noise about themselves (at least in the states)

Blazin Trav · 08-19-2008, 08:26 AM

omg let's argue a bit more and go after me because you've neg repped me in the past!!! that will be so productive.

If you want to buy refurbished you are probably fine. If you want to write 4-5 paragraphs about how you disagree with MY OPINION then go ahead. I will likely not care and NOT respond to your trivial pursuit. I hope you are laughing as hard as I am, because honestly most receivers are fine, I just don't like Sony because I had a bad experience. Then again you don't have to believe a word I say or take my one experience vs. other's.

Quote:

personally, I love my yamaha reciever, its used (which means it too has killed my children, dropped my credit score to 0, and all of those other evil things), but I'm not gonna scream and cry that Yamaha is the only answer, because he might not even have one available to him at a good price/location, so why get him locked into a single brand?

Wait I was right? I actually gave good advice again? I didn't lock him into anything I gave him a legitimate suggestion. God forbid I actually know what I'm talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich

yeah, and the OLD school kenwoods, like 1970's oldschool (like before Kensonic broke off to become Accuphase oldschool) are just amazing pieces of equipment, big, heavy, relatively rare, and amazing quality

kenwood is an oddball company, most of their products are great, some of them are meh, and they don't really make a lot of noise about themselves (at least in the states)

Kenwood has always made good audio products. I honestly don't know wtf you are talking about. And don't expect me to go completely off topic to defend my position as clearly most have done in this thread.

Quote:

seriously man, grow up
one bad experience with a refurb is just like one bad experience with a new product, QC is not a perfected art, the majority of factory refurbished equipment will be just as good as factory new equipment, except for accessories not always being included, or it looking a little rough around the edges (based on the grade of refurb'd equipment, most resellers only deal in A and B though, so very minimal damage, only education and a few other sectors will primarily deal with grade C resale (because the margins are so low))

so I'd really LOVE TO KNOW how i'm off topic, when I'm just giving some pointers on finding used or refurbished equipment, especially if he wants to take the Sony route, I'm not the one saying "your life will end and the gods will smite you if you buy refurb", and I'm also not the one jumping into the thread and trying to moderate it

yeah, he's got a setup upstairs, yeah its good quality, so you're saying we're only allowed ONE good quality object of a type in our homes? we can't have two good quality receivers? can't have two good quality PCs?

God forbid I was wrong and corrected myself? How the **** am I not grown up? You wrote three paragraphs trying to flame me... maybe you should transplant your thick head and come back down to earth.

If you really think it was just one refurb product you might as well stick your head in the sand and call it a day.

obobskivich · 08-19-2008, 08:15 PM

uh, I was ignoring you and talking to other members in the thread, you aren't, and never will be, the center of my universe, sorry, it just isn't in the cards

as far as "wait I know what i'm talking about", I thought you were just repeating what someone else told you? and you said yamaha was the only choice, based on what someone else told you, I'm saying, don't lock into a brand and tell him its the absolute

the past is the past, you're the one that wants to keep bringing it up, sorry bro, but I'm not playing your games

Blazin Trav · 08-21-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich

uh, I was ignoring you and talking to other members in the thread, you aren't, and never will be, the center of my universe, sorry, it just isn't in the cards

as far as "wait I know what i'm talking about", I thought you were just repeating what someone else told you? and you said yamaha was the only choice, based on what someone else told you, I'm saying, don't lock into a brand and tell him its the absolute

the past is the past, you're the one that wants to keep bringing it up, sorry bro, but I'm not playing your games

I'm pretty sure my post had nothing to do with you, so thanks for derailing the thread.

Anyways, Yamaha is a good receiver and I OWN one. There, is that unbiased enough for you people? Dear lord I swear nearly everyone on these forums wants to be the next top eThug... or maybe it's just me.

obobskivich · 08-22-2008, 03:39 AM

I own two, and love them both, doesn't mean its the only option

and I don't really care about epenis or ethug or whatever, i'm just sick of the combative bullcrap that everyone seems to want to pull on this board, just to try and help someone, everyone trying to "win the thread" instead of help the poster